June 11, 2009

The Justifiability of Irrational Numbers


I have been doing Algebra 1 this year, and I really enjoyed it - until I came to the chapter on irrational numbers. Now don’t be intimidated by my mentioning algebra/math. This is really going to be a very simple post. But I will warn you ahead of time, that you can’t get much out of it by skimming it. Get in, or stay out.

This post was inspired by a discussion I had with a clever young man, at a chess table at the 2009 Home school Book Fair. (Though I think I have had this conversation more than once, with more than one person.) Being multitaskers, we tried to have the discussion, with inserts from several other bystanders, and play chess at the same time. It was quite educational. I think it started with him trying to explain to me why one cannot know both the velocity of an object and the position of that object, and from there we got onto irrational numbers and the Theory of Relativity. (This post only covers irrational numbers.)

Irrational numbers are introduced with the Pythagorean theorem:

In other words: The square of the hypotenuse of a right triangle is equal to the sum of the squares of the other two sides.

This is true for any right triangle. Example:


hypotenuse = c


1 leg = a

2 leg = b

So we translate that as follows: 42 + 32 = ?2

4 squared really means 4 times itself, which comes out to be 4 x 4 = 16

3 squared comes out to be 3 x 3 = 9

16 + 9 = 25

25 now equals the hypotenuse, squared. In order to undo the square, we must find the square root of 25. If you have any algebra, it is not hard to figure out that the square root of 25 = 5. (5 x 5 = 25) All very well and fine. But it doesn’t always work. What if you do this?


Should be pretty easy, right?

12 + 12 = ? 2

12 = 1 (1 x 1 =1) so 1 + 1 = 22

? 2 = 22

Thus, the square root of two is the length of the hypotenuse.

How in the wide and wild world does one ever find the square root of 2?

It doesn’t seem so complicated at first, unless you have already been through it before, and are already thoroughly aware of the scandalous problem. But if not, it won’t take long to become so. There can only be so many numbers, right? 1x1 = 1 which is too low. 2x2 = 4 which is two high. It must be a fraction/decimal. But you could spend weeks trying to find what fraction works, and never succeed. In other words, the square root of 2 cannot be represented by a whole number or a fraction.

1.4142135623730950488016887242097 etc. is the closest you can get. But it is still too low. What is more, that number does not end with the 7, but goes on into eternity, in an endless string of numbers that NEVER repeats itself. There is no pattern. It is absolutely random.

1.4142135623730950488016887242097 x 1.4142135623730950488016887242097 = 1.9, with a repeating 9 that disappears into eternity. Not quite 2. The square root of two is called an ‘irrational number.’ What’s more, there are hundreds of other ‘irrational numbers,’ and unfortunate high-school students all over the world are expected to put up with the infamous incongruity and use irrational numbers in their calculations like any other number.

But in spite of the best algebra teachers available, the theory still does not make sense. It defies reason. How can a finite length, in this case the hypotenuse of the above triangle, be nonexistent? Because if it is not a whole number or a fraction, how can it exist? How can that simple black line have no definite length? It simply cannot be.

You can take a ruler and measure that mysterious black line. No, you won’t get an exact number, the ruler isn’t precise enough for that, but surely an exact number must exist. To say that it does not defies the imagination. How can that line have NO exact length?

I don’t know quite how it works, but I have an idea. Let’s back up several decades and think of it this way. If you have an object, for the sake of illustration let us say you have a rectangular eraser, than you can split it in half. You can split it in half again, and again and again. Theoretically, you can split it in half eternally. There is always that one piece of matter, and there is always one half of it to split. Once you get to the atomic level things might get more complicated, I don’t know. Leave it at that.

Now, what if you use a number? This might be slightly more difficult to fathom, because a number is not a piece of matter. It is more like an idea. Let’s use the number 12. Split is once and you have 6, split it again and you have 3, split it again and you have 1.5, split it again and you have 0.75, split it again and you have 0.375 and so on. We need not say that, theoretically, you can split a number infinitely, because numbers as we are dealing with them are already theoretical, and you can certainly split them infinitely. You can split the number 12 until your head splits, but I don’t aim to go that far. The point, that I have taken a vastly long time to make, is that a number can be split infinitely. Let’s move on.

This is a very simple number line that I have created with the help of Microsoft Paint, (a certain software that I have a love/hate relationship with.)

Now, stare at that beautiful piece of art and think about this very carefully for a moment.

IF YOU CAN SPLIT A NUMBER INFINITELY, THAN INFINITY EXISTS WITHIN THIS NUMBER LINE.

Did it click? If it didn’t than I’ll spend one short paragraph trying to explain it a little better.

There are an infinite number of points on that number line, because the points can always get smaller and smaller and smaller, (since you can cut them in half eternally.) So even though the number line has a finite length, infinity exists within it – on a very small scale.

If you don’t agree that there is infinity within a line, than you may as well stop reading right here. You can write me a comment, asking me to do a better job of explaining, or telling me I am dead wrong, and I’ll try to help.

If you do agree, than we’ll go on to the final statement of Part One.

Try to relate ‘infinity within a line’ with ‘an infinite number that is not a whole number or a fraction and never reaches the square root of 2.’ If you think very hard for about three minutes, you will probably be able to fathom how an infinite number can exist within a line. How the length of a line can actually be an infinite number. It all hangs on relating the two concepts I just mentioned. If infinity exists within a line, than it might just possibly be able to imagine how a number can be infinite within a line and never quite reach a whole number or a fraction that, when multiplied by itself, equal 2. In a way, the square root of 2 does not exist. Almost, but not quite. There is just no point on that number line that is the square root of 2. To me, at least, that begins to make a shadow of sense.

When I first came to this conclusion, with the help of the Physicist, my first objection, – I like making objections – which may possibly be what is going on in your mind right now, was that the square root of 2 goes on and on forever, but the line doesn’t. There may be infinity within the line, but the line itself isn’t infinite. I have no proof either way, but if you think about it, all of the numbers that come after 1.4 get very small very fast and it is only reasonable that they correspond with the points on the line accordingly. If that didn’t make any sense, and doesn’t help you, than just leave it alone and go on.

This is all conjecture – none of it is proof – but I have not yet even conjectured, much less proven, that irrational numbers are at all justified. All I have done so far is given an argument for the existence of an infinite number within a finite line. Which fact most mathematicians accepted several thousand years ago. It seems quite simple, actually, once you have thought of it, but it was very hard for me to fathom at first. Well, actually, I have done a little more. I have given an argument for the existence of an infinite number within a finite line never reaches anything that is exactly the square root of two. In other words, it never reaches anything that, when squared, that is, multiplied by itself, will equal 2.

By the way, before we go on, let me clear something up. If my repeated reference to a number that ‘never reaches,’ bothers you, let me put that straight. Most numbers don’t reach anywhere, but if you have an infinite number, it is rather difficult to speak of it without using the word ‘reaches.’ Since it is infinite, and goes on and on and on, it is actually, in a way, ‘going’ somewhere. Thus the word ‘reaches.’

But anyway, the conclusion we came to above is not necessarily an irrational number, I don’t think. An irrational number is not only infinite, it also, supposedly, never repeats itself.

Infinity within a line posed a problem to me for a while, but once you get over it, it becomes minuscule in the presence of this colossal problem. Because now that we have got over the argument that it cannot be, we are faced with the much more significant argument that it should not be. The math books try to tell us that that number that never ends and never repeats itself is random - absolutely and eternally random, and for me, that is far more difficult to fathom than infinity within a line. The universe is NOT random!

But this post is already four pages long, and even if there is anyone who has read this far, they will probably not be inclined to read any farther just now, so the rest of this will have to wait for a future post.

One more thing. If you read this post thinking, yes, of course, or I knew that all along, or just what I was going to say, and were sorely disappointed at being unable to participate in a controversy simply because there was nothing to argue about, than here are a few other points that might trigger a cyber debate.

Einstein’s General Theory of Relativity – is there an absolute by which to measure the motion of objects, or can we never discover whether the ball that fell from the train was traveling straight or curved or both or neither?

The Nature of the Universe – Is the Universe finite – or not? Is a finite Universe fathomable? What exactly do we mean when we say ‘universe?’

The Andromeda Galaxy – Can we read history in the light of a galaxy 2.5 million light years away? If that figure is accurate, than what are we really seeing? Can we look back in time?

I don’t necessarily have opinions on any of them, but I would love to have it out with someone and create an opinion on any or all of them.

23 comments:

ourspareoom said...

Ohh, Raora!!!! How could you let me down? A post about MATH??? ALGEBRA??? Too cruel, too cruel. I've just been getting in to that stuff in math and it is just NASTY. I'm really not very fond of math and sciences, to put it rather mildly. Oh well, I forgive you. THIS time. And don't expect me to have a debate with you about this, because I will have no idea what I'm talking about. *sigh*

Okay, now that that's all over; I'm having a giveaway on my blog, if you want to come check it out!
~Meg

P.S. Next time, do something literary, please. :)

ourspareoom said...

Raora,
Even if *some people* might be too prejudiced against math to properly appreciate your post. < raises eyebrows towards certain sister > *I* enjoyed it. And good thinking. I loved algebra, but I never had the creativity to try and think out irrational numbers. I just sort of accepted their irrationality. :)
Namarie,
Lizbelle

Jordana said...

*laughs* I HATE math, but I enjoyed your post (and finished it :D). Have you heard of Zeno's paradox? You might find it interesting :)

Anonymous said...

Well Raora,
How very interesting! I like math a lot. Although i am not doing algebra 1 yet i only do pre-algebra.Its a lot of fun.

Miss Jocelyn said...

Hey you! Miss you.... read your sister's comment (uh from me hehe). :)

Anonymous said...

One techiclallity is that the line does go on indefinetly but the line segment doesn't

Anonymous said...

what i mean is that lines aren't finite they go on forever the thing that is usually considered a line is in truth a line segment not a line

Anonymous said...

oh yes, and whoever posted the comment on top, this is really geometry, the theory of irrational numbers is algebra, but the justification of infinity in a line segment is geometry

He who came from ss work camp said...

oh so this is how you have a name (the reason i say this is that the 3 previous comments our mine)

Raora said...

He-Who-Came-From-SS-Workcamp,

Thanks for commenting! I'm was hoping we'd be able to finish that conversation sometime. :)

Come to think of it, that was actually a VERY important detail that I missed. I guess leaving out the 'segment' is technically incorrect, and possibly confusing. Infinity within a line segment is the real concept. So, thanks.

Something else. I didn't know that geometry is not considered math. I always thought math included arithmetic, algebra, geometry, calculus and the rest. Interesting.

I really ought to make the second half of this post - on the Justifiability of Infinite Randomness. lol The reason I haven't is because I haven't come to a conclusion on it yet. So I think the Universe isn't random, and I don't understand how the square root of 2 can be infinitely random. But that isn't much of an argument. :D We never did get very far into the chaos theory.

BTW, have you ever heard of Zeno's paradox? I think it is intriguing.

Namarie,
Raora aka SJ

He who came from ss work camp said...

Geometry is a math but is entirely separate from algebra as it is dealing with objects; and know i haven't heard of Zeno's paradox

He who came from ss work camp said...

no not know

Raora said...

He-who-came-from-SS-work-camp,

Thanks for commenting.

Zeno's paradoxes are a set of problems devised by Zeno of Elea to support Parmenides's doctrine that "all is one" and that, contrary to the evidence of our senses, the belief in plurality and change is mistaken, and in particular that motion is nothing but an illusion.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno’s_paradox)

I found them immensely interesting, especially since he used the concept of infinity within a line SEGMENT, :), to prove that motion is an illusion.

My favorite is The Dichotomy Paradox.

Which states: That which is in locomotion must arrive at the halfway stage before it arrives at the goal.

Example: You are trying to go somewhere/reach someplace. Before you can get there, you must get halfway there. Before you can get halfway there, you must get a quarter of the way there. Before traveling a fourth, you must travel one-eighth; before an eighth, one-sixteenth; and so on.

This description requires one to complete an infinite number of tasks, which Zeno maintains is an impossibility.

This sequence also presents a second problem in that it contains no first distance to run, for any possible (finite) first distance could be divided in half, and hence would not be first after all. Hence, the trip cannot even begin. The paradoxical conclusion then would be that travel over any finite distance can neither be completed nor begun, and so all motion must be an illusion.

Intriguing. And I'm not saying that I believe a word of it, :), but...the evidence of our senses deny these problems, logical as they may seem, to one who did not know otherwise. Just makes me think that some of our 'logical' arguments that sound so great may be just as ridiculous - we just do not yet know otherwise, because we do not have the more obvious proof of our senses as contradiction.

If any of that interests you...lol

Namarie,
Raora

He who came from SS work camp said...

it does make some since,the part about the infinity, but the one problem with it is the fact that even if movement is an illusion, distance can't be and we travel distances constantly so therefore movement must exist

He who came from SS work camp said...

I finally solved the paradox and the concept of infinity within a line; it's not that the infinity exists within the line (wich also aplies to Zeno's paradox if you think of the distance as a line segment), but that you can measure the line segment at an infinite number of points which means that the line segment does have infinity within it if you look close enough, it's that you can measure it at any place on the line segment of which there are an infinite number of places where you can put a point.

He who came from SS work camp said...

i meant it to say (which means that the line segment doesn't have infinity within it if you look close enough) not ( which means that the line segment does have infinity within it if you look close enough)

Raora said...

Yes - the whole thing is extremely confusing - but I think I get your point, and agree with it, to a degree. The wording is what catches one up, I think. And 'infinite' itself is not such a specific word either, when you think of it.

To make it simple, I think what we are both trying to say is that there are two ways to look at it.

1. Just like you said, there are an infinite number of points in/on a line segment. In light of this fact, the statement that 'infinity exists within a line segment' is correct.

2. The line segment itself, when speaking in terms of distance or space, is not infinite. In light of this fact, the statement that, 'infinity exists within a line segment' is incorrect.

I'm sure you get the point. :D

I think at first sight Zeno's paradox falls into category one. Infinite number of points, therefore infinite number of 'tasks' which can never be completed. But it also deals with distance, which makes it so obviously fallacious to us.

Thanks for commenting. I've enjoyed our discussion. :)

Namarie,
Raora

He who came from ss work camp said...

Your welcome

Anonymous said...

Hi Raora,

That was REALLY interesting, I'm doing Algebra next and I'm sure I'll understand it much better then. I'm going to leave on my hiking trip in New Mexico on Friday. How are you doing?

Namarie,
Sir Richard

Anonymous said...

no offense, that was pretty boring. i made it about half way through before i started feeling my brain cells die. I clicked on a link to your blog on one of my friends blogs and to be honest my favorite part was the end. well at least of this post. I thought it was ridiculous that you would actually take the time to write ALL OF THIS, and then i realized, wow, someone actually took the time read ALL THIS. Great blog by the way, just math posts don't exactly capture the reader's attention.

Raora said...

No offense, but I didn't actually write this post for the likes of you. :D

Quin McGlaughlin said...

Hey, its Quin. I was on facebook and i saw your name and remembered your blog so i checked it out. this is interesting. i didn't get to read it all but i read enough to understand what you meant. It was not a mathematician that discovered this, but a philosopher. He claimed that we could never ACTUALLY reach a destination since everything has a half way point if we move from half way point to half way point than it is only logical that we can never actually reach a destination as the number can grow infinitely small without ever reaching zero. He was then accused of heresy, condemned, strapped to a pole, while the executioner said to him, "If your theory is indeed correct, then my arrows will never ACTUALLY reach you." He then proceeded to empty a quiver of arrows into his chest. Just a thought

Iron sharpens iron. I figued with how much we challenge each other we might as well put it to use.

; )

~Quin

ourspareoom said...

Hello Raora! I'm guessing you're still alive (I've been worried), because StrongJoy still is. Just letting you know that you're awarded :).
~Meg

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